Of hate and Islam.
There has been some amount of controversy lately about MSNBC’s description as “hateful” of the web log known as “Little Green Footballs.” (*) Many conservative web loggers have leaped to the defense of LGF and its writer, Charles Johnson. (†)
Then, today comes along and Charles Johnson posts:
Oriana Fallaci’s book The Rage and the Pride has been vilified in Europe, for daring to tell the truth about Islam’s hatred of the West.
(‡) Let’s leave to one side what Orlana Fallaci believes. Let’s focus on what Charles Johnson said. It’s apparently okay for Charles to say without evidence, without reason that Islam is a monolith that hates the West, but it’s not okay to say that based on his monolithic, stereotyped characterization of Islam, that Charles is a hater of Islam. Got that?
Islam is not a person, it’s a thing—both a religion and a civilization. A thing can’t hate. Moreover, I happen to know several Muslims, and I can’t think of one of them that hates the West. We do know that a few Muslims are terrorists like Osama Bin Laden and clearly do hate the West, but there is no reason to believe that this hatred is shared by more than a relative few. Islam can’t be described so simply as by Charles Johnson.
I would like to think that Osama Bin Laden will not get his wish, and that we of this world will learn to look past our differences and live in peace. That will not happen until the terrorists are defeated. Yet, there are apparently many in the West that are tempted to do what Osama wants and start hating Islam for being Islam and turn civilization upon civilization, as if peace were a luxury. We are right to direct our wrath toward our enemies—the terrorists—but not against Islam itself, which does not hate the West, no matter what some may say.
Anil Dash reflects thoughtfully on the controversy. (§)
Update: 2003.08.30. Link is reinstated. (‡)
October 23rd, 2002 at 14:27
Ahem, . . . Andrew, does it matter to you, in the slightest degree, what the MUSLIMS THEMSELVES say??? Charles makes a weekly post ("Peaceful Religion Watch") which provides ACTUAL quotes of the mullahs and imams of various (usually state-sponsored and supported) mosques throughout the ME - Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Bahrain, etc. He also provides frequent links to the DIRECT translations from (again, usually government-sponsored and controlled) Arab-language press in the ME. THEY say they hate me, and want to kill me. Given the choice between taking their words at face value (particularly since their language is also consistent with their actions), and believing your Pollyanna approach, I think I’ll opt in favor of believing that they mean what they say.
October 23rd, 2002 at 14:36
In Islam, there are many juridical traditions. The fact that a few mullahs say one thing or another proves nothing about Islam itself, or Islam taken as a whole, which was my point.
October 23rd, 2002 at 15:01
Islam is not a person, it’s a thing?both a religion and a civilization. A thing can’t hate. Moreover, I happen to know several Muslims, and I can’t think of one of them that hates the West. We do know that a few Muslims are terrorists like Osama Bin Laden and clearly do hate the West, but there is no reason to believe that this hatred is shared by more than a relative few. Islam can’t be described so simply as by Charles Johnson.
I know several blacks and consider them to be my friends. Jeesh. Better try a little harder there. As to the followers of islam-it is a hate filled cult of death and destruction followed by raping and pillaging. Islam has contributed nothing to this world for over 400 years except post partum abortions.
October 23rd, 2002 at 15:08
I realize that people don’t take personal anecdotes seriously in an argument.
However, for what it’s worth, my friend’s husband grew up Muslim in Bangladesh. He now lives in the U.S., and has embraced more things American and Western than I do!
I guess it’s personal experiences like these that have proven to me, personally, that not all Muslims hate Westerners and/or Americans.
If, in your personal experience, you’ve only experienced hatred from Muslim people… then I guess I can understand your prejudice, but I just can’t share it.
October 23rd, 2002 at 15:10
A FEW mullahs????? Dude, take a deep breath, go back to Charles’ site, go through his extensive and well-indexed archives, and make a list for yourself of the FEW mullahs, Arab language newspapers, and government spokespeople - then speculate about how large their "flocks" are. Then list for me all the moderate, nuanced countervailing Muslim opinion and its sources. Islam may be "complex" - aren’t MOST religions? - but to even ATTEMPT to deny that the anti-Western, Jihad mentality has captured the Muslim "mainstream" throughout most of the world is . . . well, Andrew, denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
October 23rd, 2002 at 15:18
Chloe, the father of one of my best friends is a Muslim from Iran. Lovely man; one of the sweetest, most peaceful people I know - wouldn’t hurt a fly. But what makes you think HE is more representative of Islam than the hundreds of hate mongers who pour out POISONOUS diatribes against the US and Israel in particular, and the West in general, every day?
October 23rd, 2002 at 16:45
In the web log community, a boid, brash statement will draw attention and listeners. So it is in the, er, uhm, mullah community, if you will. The fact is that there are many mullahs out there who condemn suicide bombing, terrorism, and all the rest. The fact that they do not get headlines on the Little Green Footballs web site does not mean much.
There is indeed trouble brewing in the Muslim mainstream. A variety of factors has led to the present perception of widespread conflict. The danger is that this conflict will boil over. If we in the West start attacking Islam per se than we will be contributing to that boiling over.
This is a war. The War on Terrorism. I am not your stereotypical lefty. I support the War on Terrorism and the preemptive attack on Iraq. We must win the War on Terrorism, and the only way to stop this from becoming a wider conflict is to be clear in our values and goals. We are not attacking Muslims, but we are attacking terrorists. There is a difference.
As for mainstream Muslim opinion, we must give succor to moderate, anti-terrorist Muslims, and we must augment their pleas to the Muslim populace at large by precision of our words and deeds.
October 23rd, 2002 at 16:48
Um Andrew…
I’ve known Dodd for quite some time. You may want to consider moving the link to Ipse Dixit to the "right side" if you know what I mean.
October 23rd, 2002 at 17:20
8 comments, 2 of them your own, and no comments for days on your site. No wonder you’re out trolling on LGF. Pathetic.
October 23rd, 2002 at 17:39
I’m curious, Andrew. Are the Chechen terrorists currently holding hundreds of hostages in a theater in Moscow from the moderate, nuanced branch of Islam?
You can claim as much as you want that the "mainstream" Muslim clerics condemn suicide bombing - but there is simply no evidence of that. Show me the statement from CAIR that UNEQUIVOCALLY condemns terrorism and suicide bombing. Note the qualification, Andrew. UNEQUIVOCALLY. The "condemnations" I’ve seen trumpeted from them are equivocal in the extreme. WHERE is this "moderate" Muslim peace movement? HOW do they manage to keep so quiet?
Hell, I’ve seen MORE statements by US Christians asking people NOT to stereotype Muslims than I have by Muslims asking their fellow Muslims to renounce terror. Don’t give me conclusory statements, give me EVIDENCE. Charles does. You don’t. Q.E.D.
October 23rd, 2002 at 18:18
Link moved. Thanks.
I’m not really ready for much traffic. I’ve got to improve site navigation, and obviously, the comments section. My intent in posting on LGF was that I felt a moral obligation to say something. If you want to visit my site as a result, fine. I don’t intend this to be a mass traffic site, but instead I hope it gains a few thoughtful readers.
I’m not here to defend CAIR. Interestingly, Daniel Pipes is attacking them as sympathetic to terrorism here. I haven’t had time to read all of Pipes’s allegations or sort them out.
Where are the moderate Muslims? Like I said, prevented by their reasonableness from getting air time on sensationalistic television programs.
As for the Chechen terrorists, I hope they are about to find out the meaning of steel as it flies approximately 2,000-3,000 mph through the air.
October 23rd, 2002 at 19:47
Hey, you wanted moderate Muslims? Here’s one with a web log, and links to more.
October 24th, 2002 at 02:12
Maybe they don’t hate the West. They just hate all our values that derive from Classical Civilization. Take out a loan and buy a clue.
October 24th, 2002 at 12:50
Andrew, last night I went through a VERY educational exercise. I took out my son’s globe, and marked in felt pen every "hot spot," where there is or recently has been active fighting. In every case, the "hot spot" was either in, or on the border of, a Muslim country. What am I to make of this?
October 24th, 2002 at 18:50
Good point. There are only a few hot spots, like Columbia and Zimbabwe, that don’t have many Muslims nearby. Osama said there was a war going on against Muslims, but 9/11 and many other attacks proved that Muslim terrorists are taking the offensive side in many cases.
I would even say that Muslims are responsible for more contemporary conflict than Christians.
I just was saying that there is nothing inherently hateful, or violent, about Islam.
It wouldn’t be right to say that Christianity is fundamentally hateful because of Hitler.
October 25th, 2002 at 01:02
According to MSNBC: ?Little Green Footballs
A popular but controversial Warblog focusing on militant Islam and terrorism.?
Where does it say the LGF is ?hateful??
You say: ?In Islam, there are many juridical traditions. The fact that a few mullahs say one thing or another proves nothing about Islam itself, or Islam taken as a whole, which was my point.?
It is not what Islam says that is so distressing, it is what Islam does. And what it does, on a regular, consistent basis is murder people, both other fellow Muslims and ?infidels.? The fact that Islam does this around the world is pretty solid evidence.
Case in point: The Chechen hostage situation going on right now. They are linked internationally to Islam. That is international terror?Islamic terror!
The Qu?ran, as interpreted today, is an instruction book for terror just as the Bible was hundreds of years ago. If one reads religious Christian statements from the middle ages one is struck by how similar these are to current Islamic teachings: all for God, preparing for the after life by rejecting this life, the subjugation of women, etc.
Time for a reformation in Islam. Education is the only way to counter this plague of religious extremism.
Freebourne
March 26th, 2004 at 13:03
ik zeg het in het Nederlands:
we hebben hier in Nerderland een heleboel islamieten die Necderland haten maar wel ondertussen zonder te werken gebruik maken van de soc voorzieningen en die de gevoelens van mensen 40 45 schofferen door hun bloemen te vernielen moham ed is een kinderverkrachter lees de koran